Author Topic: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series  (Read 237 times)

Offline William Stonehill

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Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« on: June 06, 2019, 11:23:57 AM »
Mitsubishi Heavy, which is trying to develop Japan's first passenger jet, the MRJ (Mitsubishi Regional Jet)which they hope to introduce to the market some time in the early 2020's, but which has proved a gaping hole in Mitsubishi Heavy's finances so far--they had to just roll over close to $1 Billion in commercial paper owed them by their aeronautics division--Is attempting to buy Bombadier's CJR division. The MRJ is conceived of as being 70 to 100 passengers, and the four planes that Bombardier have in their CJR series are also 70 to 100 passengers.

Bombardier says about the talks "No conclusion has yet been reached" . Bombardier has had great difficulty with their C series  Airbus rebranded it as the A220. The plant will be located beside a factory where Airbus already produces the A320 aircraft in Mobile. Apparently this is set to become a quite successful aircraft in its' size, but Bombardier has lost control of it.

Another problem facing both Bombardier and Mitsubishi Heavy is the lawsuit that Bombardier filed in Seattle against Mitsubishi for pirating personnel from Bombardier to help the MRJ get through its' air worthiness tests. Mitsubishi has counter sued, claiming Bombardier  has brought suit merely to slow down development of a potential competitor.

Given the rather tortured history of Bombardier, this is par for the course, it seems. Meanwhile, Boeing has bought an 80% interest in the civilian aircraft wing of Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer Bombardier's principal competitor, and other American companies are enthusiastically cooperating with the military wing of Embraer to sell the Super Tucano prop fighter world wide, including to the Afghanistan Air Force.

Count on the MRJ tale getting really weird before it is all over.
Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy

Offline William Stonehill

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 10:22:09 AM »
While the MRJ may be a "so what?" to most people reading about it, it is a keystone in Abe's strategy to keep Japan a dominant economic power into the beginning of the 21st Century. Aero-Space is one of the areas along with export of large scale "installations" such as nuclear reactors, in Abe-ism, that would form the foundation that Japanese exports would be built on. The problem is, the export of large scale installations, be they nuclear reactors or gas turbines has largely proved a flop, as country after country (Turkey , the USA and the UK have all recently seen big Japanese companies forced to with draw from major projects because of massive cost over runs that threaten the very existence of the Japanese firms involved) and aerospace is not doping much better.

In a rare public statement on the economics of the MRJ, the vice president of the Mitsubishi aeronautics wing of Mitsubishi Heavy stated that "6 Billion dollars has already been invested in the MRJ. To recover this money, a minimum of 1500- planes would have to be sold. This is a 20 to 30 year project at least"  At present the MRJ has 407 orders, of which perhaps 100 are firm orders, the rest being various forms of Letters of Understanding. They have now had 40 cancellations, and no new orders since 2016. . The MRJ was originally scheduled to fly in 2013, and is now on the 5th extension, and Mitsubishi is talking about introducing it in the "mid 2020s". It is at this point seven years late (being late is not unusual for a new model of airplane) but there seem to be fundamental problems standing in way of its' air worthiness certificate, not the very least the lawsuit Bombadier launched against it in Seattle for industrial espionage. Air worthless tests are being conduct at Mose Lake in Washington State, a relatively sparsely populated area.

Comments today in the Japanese Asahi seem to indicate that (according to the usual Japanese sources) all that Mitsubishi has to do is slide a few Billion dollars across the table and they can walk away with the entire CJR division of Bombardier.

The devil is in the details, a proverb the Japanese would wise to learn. The Bombardier division is one of the jewels in Canada's industrial crown. It comprises of a number of planes that directly compete with the MRJ in the 70 to 100 seat class. Furthermore, it is difficult to imagine Canada allowing Mitsubishi to move work on these planes out of Canada. And from there the difficulties multiply, and although any number of synergies can be point at (not least of all the desire of Bombardier to sell their CJR series) buying and running Bombardier so the MRJ can someday--maybe--take wing looks very much like throwing good money after bad.
Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy

Offline William Stonehill

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2019, 07:43:22 PM »
More MRJ stuff. Yes I know I'm the only one who cares about this. Yes, I know you all feel free to throw rotten tomatoes and dead cats at me. But, the beat goes on....
The Paris Air Show, the world's largest Trade Show for aircraft of all sorts at which the MJR is no doubt engaged in another futile exhibit, claims that they have an "Important Announcement"
so it looks like they in fact did buy part of Bombardier.

Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy

Offline Charlie Badenhop

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2019, 10:19:12 PM »
I have a definite interest in this topic!

Offline William Stonehill

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 06:33:27 PM »
I have a definite interest in this topic!

A rose on yer head, Charlie.

So, you may ask, what is the dramatic announcement MRJ is going to make at the Paris Air Show. You don't exactly have to strap yourself in your seat when I tell you, but it might be a good idea to have a box of tissues handy in case you break into tears.

The dramatic announcement is that MRJ is changing their name from MRJ to "Space Jet" and also, that the Space Jet M90 (which used to be the MRJ M90...you'll get used to it) is now too big to fit American regulations for regional jets and can't be sold in the USA . If this sounds pretty idiotic to you, it sounds that way to me too. They have to sell around 1500 of these airplanes before they can make a profit, and the USA is the largest market for regional jets in the world at present. How did this happen? They have something like 6 Biullion dollars tied up in devloping this airplane, and they still have not got their American air worthiness certificate.

But wait, it just gets better! They are going to stop all work on the MRJ 70 ( a smaller version of the Space Jet M90) which is still on the drawing boards and has not yet advanced to mock up or prototype stage. Instead, they are going to start work on an all new jet called the SpaceJet M100 and display at Paris a mock up of the interior. This proposed jet WILL meet US regional jet restrictions,
so saith Mitsubishi Aerospace.

I'm not a crap shooter or a gambler in any way or form, but if I was, I would not bet on the M100. The M90 was supposed to be the jet that would meet American regional jet regs, and this has sailed off somewhere to the place where good ideas go to die. The M90 is seven years delayed, and now that they have announced that it is not compatible with American regional jet regulations, how many more of their 400 planes on order will be cancelled?

This being the Paris Air Show, where Boeing and Airbus face off to each other and Boeing has its' problems, but so does Airbus, i.e. the a400 military turboprop souring relations with possibly every government and armed forces in Europe, so don't expect too much press for the SpaceJet M90 or the Spacejet M100. In fact, it's a good question whether the Spacejet M100 will ever be built.

As for Mitsubishi buying part of the Bombardier line, this is the type of thing that would be announced at the Paris Air Show, but not a peep yet. What Mitsubishi seems to have announced is that they don't need Bombardier, and will build their own line from scratch. So this is now seeming more and more like a distant possibility.

Oddly enough, Honda is doing OK building small jets in the USA, and despite being in a highly competitive end of the market, are getting orders, moving forward and delivering planes. Unfortunately, you can't say the same for Mitsubishi Aerospace.


« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 07:20:54 PM by William Stonehill »
Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy

Offline Charlie Badenhop

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 07:28:52 PM »
I can imagine all of this in a Japanese company.


Offline William Stonehill

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 08:40:49 PM »
I can imagine all of this in a Japanese company.

What you have just written summarized all four of my posts in 10 words.
Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy

Offline Charlie Badenhop

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2019, 09:41:01 PM »
 ;D ;D

Offline William Stonehill

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Re: Mitsubishi Heavy in talks to buy Bombadier CJR series
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2019, 08:06:01 PM »
Mitsubishi just signed a MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) with an undisclosed American airline for 15 M100 jets. Great going fellas, 15 down and only 1500 to go. Of course, there is a slight problem in that the M100 does not exist. However, according to Mitsubishi, they will be making their first delivery of the M100 in 2024. Yes, without doubt...The MJR was supposed to make its' first delivery in 2013, and has since seen five extension and a name change. They still haven't delivered one.


Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in?  I think that is how dogs spend their lives.  ~Sue Murphy